State of New York
County of Fulton
Town of Caroga
Minutes of the Caroga Town Board work session held Wednesday January 24, 2018 at the municipal building located at 1840 State Highway #10 at 7:00 pm with the following persons in attendance by roll call. The salute to the flag followed.
Supervisor James Selmser- Here
Council Member John Glenn – Here
Council Member Jeremy Manning – Here
Council Member James Long - Here
Council Member Kent Kirch - Here
Other town department representatives in attendance were Steve Putman – Highway Superintendent. There were 25 members of the public in attendance.
Supervisor Selmser asked for a moment of silence for Robert Kane a former Town Supervisor and important figure in the town that recently passed away.
Supervisor Selmser opened the floor for comments from the public. Angela Germany and Angela Meredith asked for permission to launch a kayak poker run at Sherman’s this summer. The event began in 2013 with 25 people and has had over 100 participants. They have raised $1,000 for the fire department, $4,000 for the educational fund at Wheelerville School, and another $250 for the Chris Ruggeri Scholarship Fund. Last year they could not use Sherman’s. They have many volunteers. They would have people sign waivers. The women stated if they can’t use Sherman’s they probably won’t do it. Council Member Glenn thought it was a great idea but stated the biggest thing is the liability. He stated the town has to be protected; the town has to be indemnified. Council Member Glenn noted the beach is closed. These things need to be looked at. The ladies are willing to work with the town if they are told what they need to do. It is usually held the end of July the beginning of August. People signed two waivers in the past.
Supervisor Selmser stated the board would discuss it further and he will be in touch with Angie with a list of what they need. A resident asked what the requirements for organizations to use the property are. Council Member Manning stated maybe some sort of a spreadsheet for someone to fill out if they wanted to use the property. Supervisor Selmser stated they would put a statement together. Council Member Manning stated he has been in touch with the Board of Health and their main thing is the beach is closed – no one can be swimming.
There were no other public speakers with concerns.
Supervisor Selmser stated the board has a personnel issue they need to address. At 7:09 pm Council Member Manning made a motion to enter into an executive session to discuss to discuss the medical, financial, credit or employment history of a particular person or corporation, or matters leading to the appointment, employment, promotion, demotion, discipline, suspension, dismissal or removal of a particular person or corporation. Council Member Glenn seconded the motion all board member were in favor of the motion. Mr. Putman was asked to join the board.
At 7:36 pm Council Member Kirch made a motion to exit from the executive session. Council Member Manning seconded the motion. There were no comments upon exiting from the executive session.
Mary Peck asked why the executive session could not wait until the end of the meeting. There were 27 people waiting. Usually it is at the end Supervisor Selmser stated. This was pressing and a lot of times Mr. Putman who has to get up early to deal with highway issues likes to leave early.
Mr. Putman stated he has been out looking at salt buildings. He has talked to the state engineer's. They used to do the high arc soft cover buildings now they are moving away from them. Mr. Putman brought a brochure and pictures from the Town of Root. This is the type of building he thinks the town should look into. He suggested putting a side run on it so there's a possibility of moving the barn on to the cell tower property. He wants what is best for the town... the inside is pressure treated wood and is double-coated if a piece is bad they just take it off and replace it. They have 7500 ton inside. The trucks back into the barn. Absolutely nothing gets out. He has the blueprints from the county. The size he's looking at is 80’ X 100’. He does not have the estimated cost. When the Town of Root tried to rebuild their barn because it burnt down they tried to do combine services with the school and a city. It did not work out. Mr. Putman said that was not practical up here for us either. Council Member Manning wanted to know who did the plans. He stated he is reaching out to all the other towns like the Town of Keene that were successful last year and getting a grant to find out what steps they took. We don't know if there will be another grant this year yet. It has not been announced. We still need to move forward and hope it's offered again this year. Park East did the complete building project. Council Member Long asked the height of the ridge. It was not known at this time. It was noted that we are in the Adirondack Park with a height restriction. Mr. Putman is interested in having double doors. Mr. Putman noted that they Town of Root used radiant heat and save 30% fuel cost. He will get more information.
Mr. Putman wants to let the board know that the county has always used Andy Bell for engineering bridges. He needs to do the deck on Nick Stock Road this year to get it back open again. The town can piggyback on the county contract and use Mr. Bell.
Mr. Putman lastly noted that on South Shore Rd. East Caroga Someone has offered us a roadway kind of like the Maloney Road and Scotty Lane deal. Those both worked out well for the town. He stated it is acceptable and wants the board to be on board with this. There are three residences up there but there's a different owner of the road. There are other lots of there which could be sold if we accept this. He is not going to hold them to making the improvements because he didn't for the other two roads. It is not that far off. He stated it has to be three rods wide. The property will be gifted to the town it will not cost us anything. Supervisor Selmser stated it would open up so there could be more houses built their - more assessed value. The board was in agreement in taking over the road. The owner needs to deed the road over and provide a survey to the town.
Mr. Putman was asked to stay to discuss the heating system at the barn. Council Member Kirsch had some questions on the bids. He noticed it is going to be an oil fuel and needed to be hung from the ceiling. It does not have to be hung from the ceiling Mr. Putman stated but has to be 8 feet off the floor. He could build a bracket for it. One bid says that they provide the base. Council Member Kirsch noticed that Mr. Putman said the current ductwork is a problem. Only one bid shows new ductwork. One of the reasons we keep burning out the boxes is because we're not getting enough out. It was noted the furnace was new two and a half years ago when it last burned out the new bid should include ductwork the low bid was $6750 the bid with the ductwork was $8965. Mr. Putman noted A. Johnson gave him a lot of information. He has not worked with any of the vendors before. He tried to work with Shepard oil that is our oil supply source but they don't do commercial installation. Supervisor Selmser noted warranty information was missing in some of the bids. Mr. Putman did not think propane was applicable in this application. Council Member Glenn asked if the ductwork was worth $2,000 more. Mr. Putman thought it was. It is all galvanized and there would be two runs Council Member Kirch thought it was important to put in the right size duct so we don't burn out another furnace. Council Member Manning suggested rebidding this to include the ductwork. Bids will be open at the next town board meeting. The board would like the work to be done ASAP. Mr. Putman noted the equipment will need to be ordered. Mr. Putman will contact the ones who have previously submitted an estimate.
Resolution #2018-023 to go out to bid for a new furnace at the Highway Barn was offered by Council Member Kirsch at the January 24th 2018 Caroga Town board work session held at 1840 State Highway 10 Caroga Lake New York.
WHEREAS, Mr. Putman Highway Superintendent has notified the board of a need to replace the furnace in the Highway Barn, and
WHEREAS, Mr. Putman did seek estimates to get the furnace replaced, now therefore be it
RESOLVED, that the Caroga Town Board does hereby move to go out to bid for a new heating system with ductwork runs, and a warranty for the Highway Barn.
Council Member Long second of the motion.
Adopted by a vote of 5 Ayes, Selmser, Glenn, Manning, Long, Kirch
Mr. Putman left the meeting and asked that all of the information on the salt shed be returned to his clerk, Linda Gilbert.
Neil Swingruber Supervisor Selmser stated is here tonight and there are people who want to speak to some issues regarding use of the Sherman's property and some possible changes that could be forthcoming on the Sherman’s property long-term.
Council Member Glenn introduced Neil Swingruber a land developer out of Malta New York. He has done multiple multi-million-dollar projects and is a friend of his. He asks him to give the board his impressions on some of his experience in land development what the process is as a developer. He stated it is New York State Law that drives the SEQR and a Comprehensive Plan which the town has. He is not read it completely but he noted the town was the lead agency. The Comprehensive Plan is a vision he noted. Zoning creates uses for land. You're laying out different parts of your town and what you envision the uses to be. That is important because that tells you what is permissible through the Planning Board for a developer to come in. The Planning Board has the responsibility to the Town Board as appointed officials. He noted Sherman’s park is interesting because it was donated to the town. It has a stipulation in it that the town cannot convey that land in any means; it has to stay with the town. The town could do a short-term lease or short-term permitted use, or a midterm lease of a year or two year, or something much longer. However the use of the land is still guarded by the Comprehensive Planned Mr. Swingurber stated. Sherman's is listed as being the Town Center. By itself it doesn't mean anything but if you go into land planning and land development those types of terminology, it is then meant to be a retail commercial gathering, live and play non-communicable walk to where you live. Perhaps restaurants a center point of the town. It has social, business, political, purpose if you step back and began to consider potential uses. You need to look at your Comprehensive Plan. He stated the Planning Board is the first step in the process.
Mr. Swingruber has built 200 apartments in Delmar NY, just under 400 in Rensselaer East Greenbush area, another 200 in Malta, a hundred and eighty in Glenville, and 312 with Boutique retail in Malta. When there's a Comprehensive Plan in place the board steps back and the Planning Board steps in and they go through a process that is intended to quantify and verify that the project in front of them fits the Comprehensive Plan. If it doesn't it is rejected. There on the spot some projects were rejected because builders come in and have a different vision from the town. He noted no town should enter into a binding contract without their Town Attorney. Depending on if there's a negative or positive declaration with the Planning Board then the town attorney would review it. The reason we do that is because of the liability involved. It is our money. The town board can be held personally liable. Mr. Swingruber noted whatever is put on a piece of property will have an impact on the current living environment of the town even if it's an approved use. He noted traffic effects of a project. If it's a state highway the state gets involved. The county is usually involved. Utilities, endangered species, traffic studies, all these pieces come into play. Supervisor Selmser asked Mr. Swingruber to condense down to how he could participate with the board or his thoughts on development. Mr. Swingruber did not come here in to make a presentation for Sherman's Park. His purpose was to support Dr. Glenn. He thinks wonderful things can be done. A marina, restaurants, but it has to fit. The property has unique aspects. As a developer the first thing he would do would take next 6 months and sit with the Planning Board in pre-planning meetings making sure that whatever the conceptual plan is, which has to be done, in concert with an architect. You tell them this is what I want to do.
Mr. Swingruber gave his thoughts on insurance and liability at Sherman’s Park. Supervisor Selmser thanked him for his time. Council Member Glenn asked if he would serve as a resource for the town. He said of course. He handed out his business cards to the board. Mr. Swingruber left the meeting.
Council Member Long wanted to clarify something he said to correct the record. The Comprehensive Plan or a Zoning Ordinance is not required under New York State Law. If you create one it is aspirational. It is completely the opposite of what was just said by Mr. Swingruber. It is a goal, it is a dream. The zoning ordinance does hold the force of law. He wanted the record corrected.
Farmers Market – the group dropped off a copy of their bi-Laws to the clerk today. The location at Sherman’s parking lot was discussed. It would be 3 – 6pm on Fridays. They carry liability insurance of a million dollars. Council Member Glenn asked if there was a rental fee. Supervisor Selmser stated it is a service for our residents. They are doing all the legwork and a great service. Council Member Manning agreed. They do not pay rent to Johnstown or Amsterdam. They plan to have 4 – 6 vendors this year. The town will get copies of the insurance policies. They will draw up a letter of understanding to give to the town, stating how the market will run. Each Association member pays a $50.00 fee once a year and they can apply to be at any market. This money is used to advertise the market. It was discussed and noted that port-a-potties are not needed.
RESOLUTION #2018-024 to allow FMFMA Inc. to establish a Farmers Market in the Town of Caroga was offered by Council Member Long at the January 24, 2018 work session held at 1840 State Highway 10 Caroga Lake NY.
WHEREAS, the Caroga Town Board has meet with Scott Seeley of the FMFMA on two occasions, and
WHEREAS, the board desires to have a farmers market as a service to the residents of the Town of Caroga, now therefore be it
RESOLVED, that the Caroga Town Board shall allow Fulton Montgomery Farmers Market Assoc. Inc. to use the middle parking lot Fridays staring June 29 until September 14, 2018 from 2 – 7 pm for their members only on the Sherman’s property.
Council Member Manning seconded the motion.
Adopted by a vote of 4 Ayes, Selmser, Manning, Long, Kirch
1 Nay – Glenn
Caroga Arts Collective -Supervisor Selmser stated they had asked for more information. Rick Ruby is here to “speak to this issue and hopefully he can convince us that this is a good thing for the community.” A proposal was sent to the board members. Mr. Ruby stated their hope is the things that have come up tonight are perfect examples… the kayak program the Farmers Market. Last year there were four concerts the town board authorized the Music Festival to have there. Prior to that the property has not been used since the Abdella’s donated it. The Music Festival would like to extend that going forward and to help to bring the town together for the use and other things that haven't come up yet we are proposing this proposal... This has been approved by the volunteer committee to define the use for Sherman's unanimously last year, to enter into it a lease with the Music Festival. It would be the clearing house, the management organization, to have Sherman's be used for the community. He was involved last year and the year before. Sherman's looks better today than it looked in years. It's all been mostly through donations of labor or materials and volunteers at a minimal expense to the town. They are looking for a way the community can prosper for what is happening at Sherman's. It is the anchor of our community Mr. Ruby stated. They are looking for the board's approval that they would be the clearing house. Mr. Ruby stated he would be open if a developer were to come in. Their goal is not to be the owners of Sherman's. Their goal is to see Sherman's be a part of the community that it is being utilized. They're open to any ideas - long that way that makes sense. Mr. Ruby want to cross all the hurdles and if they did them correctly he would like to find out what is the shape of the Carousel Building. Is the carousel safe? He thought it would be great if it could be lit, maybe it could be turning with nobody riding it, or what if you could actually use the carousel. There are people who are excited Mr. Swingruber remembered Sherman's as a kid it will never be the way he remembers it as a kid.
They're willing to try to pursue what needs to be done to see if it's feasible to have the bumper car building safe so it can be utilized. At the first concert last year there were 400 people who came to see Chris Jamison the runner-up from The Voice. They served 186 dinners at The Boathouse that night. They attributed that because there was something going on at Sherman's. They think they can build for the good of the entire community with volunteers. There were people who signed waivers last year to be able to do things there that were part of the Music Festival who just wanted to see Sherman's better. Lawns were mowed the buildings were painted all this was done at no cost to the town by volunteers. They would just like to continue to ramp that up. Last year there 85 musicians who put on free concerts. Their plan is to build on that this year. Mr. Ruby then answered any questions.
Council Member Glenn asked if they were talking about the short-term plan tonight or the 10 to 15 year plan. Mr. Ruby responded they would like to get into a long-term lease that is the proposal they sent to the board. Council Member Glenn stated there are two different pieces of paper one is for this year and the second one is for a long-term lease that is correct. Mr. Ruby stated are we talking about both. Mr. Ruby stated they're talking about what they plan to do this year and beyond if they can work out a lease the lease will be open-ended. He knows the board has talked to developers and the Arts Collective goal is to see the property utilize for the good of the community not sit and not be used. Council Member Glenn asked if this proposal had gone to the Planning Board. Supervisor Selmser stated it is not necessary to go to the Planning Board because the town owns it is a consideration of the Town Board we're private property if there was an event being held, there could be the need for a site plan review for a special use permit.
Council Member Kirch stated tonight he did not think anyone is prepared to make any decision on a multi-year lease. He thought that we needed to have a town hall meeting to discuss it and let people weigh in on it. We're here to give a conceptual talk about it, give you feedback. Mr. Ruby again stated they are looking for a long-term solution. They sent the proposal so they could do something so the property doesn't sit empty another year. That's why they are here tonight. Council Member Kirsch stated there is a limited amount of time to get ready for the summer. When do they need to know so they can plan appropriately? Mr. Ruby hoped they could jump through whatever questions so they could know by March and have an answer. Council Member Long wondered if that was enough time to book events and all. March or February would be better.
Council Member Manning noted the two different proposals within the proposal. He wondered if this was a revision of the previous proposal submitted. Mr. Ruby stated this was a revision and they are open to what the board would like to see. Council Member Manning thought this looked more like a management agreement in exchange for of a fee and that they would be managing the property for the town, that’s what he's seeing in this. Mr. Ruby stated yes people would be contacting them. The town would be giving them parameters of what uses could be done. They would just be the management and because they are not for profit they could potentially get grants for Sherman's that a for-profit could not get. They are looking for grants now for the CAC that have nothing to do with Sherman's. They would like to get started this year and work towards a long-term solution and it can be inclusive. If there's a developer that thinks there is a purpose we can have here he thinks the music festival can be a part of whatever that program is to be, If we are town center and if they're not that would be okay too. Having something happening there that is positive makes more sense.
Council Member Glenn was prepared to discuss and make motions for this year. He proposed doing exactly what they did last year and also enter into negotiations as to what can be done long-term with them being part of the Comprehensive Plan. Council Member Manning wanted feedback on this proposal. There are things in there that he said would say won't fly. Supervisor Selmser stated we can have that discussion but the general consensus there's a couple people in the audience wanted to speak. Melanie Voght asked if the town has a town attorney. Supervisor Selmser stated it was a carryover from last year. She wanted him contacted regarding this proposal. He stated he is in until a new one is appointed.
Former Supervisor Morris noted that several board members served on that committee. She asked if this was a different contract then what was proposed to the advisory Board. Mrs. Morris stated that if it was different you’d have to go back to have presentations and if the board makes a decision you have to have a public hearing on this. Council Member Manning stated we all agree on that. She thought the whole process had to start over again. Supervisor Selmser wanted their schedule and what their intended use of the property was for this year. He wanted the revenue projections - which they can anticipate to cover expenses. These are things they did not have and are looking for. Mrs. Morris wanted the document proposal / agreement put on the town website. Council Member Kirch stated having been part of that committee he noted there never was a contract with anybody. They had a proposal and both sides agreed it needed to be negotiated so it is not a full-blown proposal like the other one was. It's only 3 pages not the 25 they had before. She wanted it made public. He thought it would be evolving more they can put it out there but it's going to change. Council Member Kirsch wanted to discuss what the plans were for the summer and hopefully they can get back to them because February is just a week away.
Council Member Glenn asked what the financial arrangement was. They talked about paying $2,500 this year and they would also provide the management to deal with other organizations who may want to use this going forward, which is part of what we're talking about. They are open to whatever solutions make sense. Their proposal goes out 15 years it has a 3% yearly increase. Council Member Kirsch did not want to get into the long term right now he wanted just to focus on this summer he wanted to know what how many events this summer and what are the financial arrangements. He thought he should be similar to last year's.
The dates asked for this year are July 21st July 28th August 4th August 11th and August 18th the agreement last year was for $500 per concert with a deposit of $500 Council Member Glenn asked if that was reasonable to the group and to the board. Council Member Manning stated he thought they did a flat fee for the whole thing. Last year was $2,000 and a $500 deposit. One of the events was canceled due to the weather so there was only three there. The revenue to the town was $1,500. Last year there were four concerts this year there would be 5. Mr. Ruby asked if the board did not want to deal with as part of as this first phase was concerned would contain any kind of leadership role beyond on that. Correct.
Council Member Long stated he did not think the board was precluding talking about it but it will have to be done before the public. He thinks this is so similar to last year that we can get this easily off the table. They would like to plan for this season. Supervisor Selmser stated if we have a long-term arrangement with a contract, structured arrangement with language, yes it would be part of a public hearing. Everybody will know what it says before any decision is made on it. Council Member Glenn was fine with that.
Resolution #2018-025 to allow the Caroga Lake Arts Collective to utilize the Sherman's property was offered by Council Member Manning at the January 24, 2018 work session held at 1840 State Highway 10 Caroga Lake NY.
WHEREAS, Mr. Ruby discussed and brought forth a 3 page proposal with the board this evening, and
WHEREAS, the board discussed allowing to series of concerts on July 21st, July 28th, August 4th, August 11th, August 18th with an additional Arts events on July 20th all in 2018, and
WHEREAS, a flat fee of $2,000 with a security deposit of $500 was decided upon, now therefore be it
RESOLVED, that Caroga Lake Arts Collective shall hold concerts at Sherman’s on the above dates for the fee agreed upon.
Council Member Long seconded the motion.
Adopted by a vote of 5 Ayes, Selmser, Glenn, Manning, Long, Kirch
Council Member Long asked if they wanted to talk anymore about long-term now. The board did not want to at this time. Supervisor Selmser thought if formerly we can have discussions and then formalize them towards the end of the year. Mary Peck asked if other people want to have events who should they go to. The town supervisor is the person they should go to. She stated somebody asked her this question about a month ago.
It was noted that the town should be paid prior to the 1st the deposit prior to the first event and then will be returned after the event.
Council Member Kirch stated at the last meeting we were working on filling Planning and Zoning Board positions. There are still two open positions. He had a couple of people he wanted to nominate. The first for the Planning Board was Peter Kiernan
Resolution #2018-026 to appoint Peter Kiernan to the Planning Board was offered by Council Member Kirch at the January 24, 2018 work session held at 1840 State Highway 10 Caroga Lake NY.
WHEREAS, the board has been working to fill several seats on the Planning and Zoning Board of Appeals,
WHEREAS, Council Member Kirch put forth the name of Peter Kiernan of 310 Mussey Road Johnstown NY (town of Caroga), now therefore be it
RESOLVED, that Caroga town Board moves to appoint Peter Kiernan to fill out the term of Jennifer Blowers and shall run until December 31, 2019.
Council Member Long seconded the motion.
Discussion: Council Member Glenn noted that Scott Horton was also interested in serving on the Planning Board. He's an engineer who previously served as the chairman and he would be happy to come back and help us out.
Adopted by a vote of 4 Ayes, Selmser, Manning, Long, Kirch
1 Nay, Glenn
Council Member Kirch then nominated Kathleen Ellerby for the open Zoning Board of Appeals seat. She has agreed to that position and she is here tonight and he thinks as a local business owner and a woman. Supervisor Selmser stated there hasn't been a female on the ZBA for many years.
Resolution #2018-027 to appoint Kathleen Ellerby to the Zoning Board of Appeals was offered by Council Member Kirch at the January 24, 2018 work session held at 1840 State Highway 10 Caroga Lake NY.
WHEREAS, the board has been working to fill several seats on the Planning and Zoning Board of Appeals,
WHEREAS, Council Member Kirch put forth the name of Kathleen Ellerby of 2531 State Highway 10 Johnstown NY 12095 (town of Caroga), now therefore be it
RESOLVED, that Caroga town Board moves to appoint Kathleen Ellerby to fill out the term of D. Peter Welker and shall run until December 31, 2022.
Council Member Long seconded the motion.
Adopted by a vote of 5 Ayes, Selmser, Glenn, Manning, Long, Kirch
She was thanks for making yourself available.
Council Member Manning stated he had not heard back from National Grid.
Mr. Bishop commented on the number of street lights out and not working properly in the Town of Caroga.
At 8:50 p.m. Council Member Glenn made a motion to adjourn.
Council Member Kirch wanted to plant a seed for the next meeting. He would like the board to think about where they are procuring products for the town and to look at buying more locally. He knows we can't always do that but he find it disturbing that we are not buying as much as we can from our local businesses. Supervisor Selmser stated years ago there was a resolution made to encourage that. The clerk confirmed that.
Council Member Glenn made a motion to adjourn. Council Member Manning seconded the motion. All board members were in favor of the motion.
Respectfully Submitted,
Linda M. Gilbert, RMC, CMC
Caroga Town Clerk
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