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Chairman Kozakiewicz called the meeting at town hall to order at 7:00pm.
Roll call:
Lynne Delesky — present
Fred Franko — present
Mike
Voght — absent
Roderick Gilmour — present
Karen
Dutcher — present
Matt Cooper — present
Chair Al
Kozakiewicz — present
Attendees: Supervisor Scott Horton, Brandon Ferguson of Environmental Design Partners, Karl Ziemann, Daniel Ziemann, Patricia Isabella, John Isabella, Code Enforcement Officer Jennifer DeRocker-Blowers, Ryan Fagan, Town Clerk Linda Gilbert, Rick Sturgess.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said the Planning Board had four applications to be decided and five pieces of business in total. He said the Planning Board would take up Shaver Special Use Permit for an Accessory Structure (P2021-12), Schmitt and Rothaug Special Use Permit for an Accessory Structure (P2021-10), Lot Line Amendment for Sturgess and An Tintean (P2021-09), Site Plan Review for Carol and Karl Management, LLC (P2021-11), and provide information and comments for Isabella (P2021-13) for an RV park.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz opened P2021-12. He asked if anyone present was representing the applicants.
There was no party representing the applicants.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said this was for a 10 foot by 14 foot shed at 189 North Shore Road West Stoner (SBL#24.6-1-2). He noted that there was a drawing attached showing setbacks.
Application P2021-12 by Michele Shaver, 40 Temple Ave, Winthrop, MA 02152, for a property located at 189 North Shore Road West Stoner, SBL#24.6-1-2 in Caroga LF-1 zoning district, APA Low Intensity land use area classification.
Rick Gilmour asked if there was any communication from neighbors.
Clerk said there was no communication from neighbors regarding that application.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said that there were no issues as far as the Code Office: setbacks are fine and area coverage is fine.
Rick Gilmour said any time people want to put their things away and keep them out of site, he’s all in agreement.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said to the Code Enforcement Officer Jennifer DeRocker-Blowers that he notes an SEAF was attached he didn’t think one was required for a Special Use Permit. He asked her if this is something she routinely did or is there some reason she thought it was required.
Code Enforcement Officer Jennifer DeRocker-Blowers said that it was something in her notes that it had been request for previous applications.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said there is no harm in including one.
Code Enforcement Officer Jennifer DeRocker-Blowers said she wanted to avoid the situation where the Planning Board was missing documents and needing to table the Public Hearing.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said it was required for Subdivision and Site Plan Review but not for Special Use Permit.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz reversed himself upon seeing it in the Zoning Ordinance and said EAF is required.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said he proposes to look at the SEAF and he doesn’t see anything that would cause the Planning Board to do Part 2.
Code Enforcement Officer Jennifer DeRocker-Blowers said she would provide anything the Chair wanted.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz reiterated that the EAF is required. He said the Planning Board is not required to review it.
Code Enforcement Officer Jennifer DeRocker-Blowers said the EAF tells whether there is water or electricity and that might indicate something might change.
Lynne Delesky asked if the SEAF p1 question number 9 should be yes.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said it was not applicable because it is not a living space. He said that if it was, the Planning Board would have other problems. He asked if there were any show-stoppers, or did anyone want to table this or make a motion to approve the application.
Motion: Lynne Delesky moved to approve P2021-12.
Rick Gilmour seconded the motion.
Roll call vote:
Lynne Delesky — yes
Fred Franko — yes
Roderick
Gilmour — yes
Karen Dutcher —yes
Matt Cooper
—yes
Chair Al Kozakiewicz — yes
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said that motion carries. He asked the clerk if this application has to go for § 239-m review. He said he thought it was something they all had to do.
Clerk said it was based on distance from neighboring towns, state highways, and county highways. He said it was not going for § 239-m review.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz, after a pause, said the Clerk was correct and the application was done.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz asked if anyone was representing application P2021-10 by Brian Schmitt & Caroline Rothaug (for a parcel at 270 South Shore West Caroga Lake Road, SBL#82.8-3-18.2).
The Chair’s query was met with silence.
Rick Gilmour noted that the estimated value for this and the previous accessory structures were very different but the proposed structures were basically the same.
Lynne Delesky asked the Clerk if there was any correspondence.
Clerk said there was no correspondence for that application.
Rick Gilmour asked the Chair to recognize the Town Supervisor Scott Horton.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz asked Town Supervisor Scott Horton to speak.
Supervisor Scott Horton said he was a neighbor within 500 feet and he was present to support the application for Special Use Permit.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said so noted.
Lynne Delesky said she had a question about the Short Environmental Assessment Form. She said, regarding question number 13, the applicant answered yes. She asked if the application was on West Caroga Lake.
13. a. Does any portion of the site of the proposed action, or lands adjoining the proposed action, contain wetlands or other waterbodies regulated by a federal, state or local agency?
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said yes. He said the followup question was that the applicant wasn’t planning to disturb any of that. He said the site includes the entire plat.
b. Would the proposed action physically alter, or encroach into, any existing wetland or waterbody?
Lynne Delesky said she brought this up because on the prior application, the applicant answered no, and that parcel is right on West Stoner Lake. She reiterated that one applicant answered no and the other applicant answered yes and both have parcels on a body of water — different bodies of water. She wondered if there was confusion. She said she didn’t know if it would make any difference.
Rick Gilmour said he did not think it would make any difference.
Lynne Delesky said it was not consistent.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz, looking at one of the drawings, said it does not identify any wetlands.
Lynne Delesky said there are certainly no wetlands where the applicant is proposing to put the shed.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz asked if there were any further comments, or questions about this application.
There was silence.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz asked any Planning Board member wanted to make any motion.
Motion: Rick Gilmour moved to approve application P2021-10.
Matt Cooper seconded the motion.
Roll call vote:
Lynne Delesky — yes
Fred Franko — yes
Roderick
Gilmour — yes
Karen Dutcher —yes
Matt Cooper
—yes
Chair Al Kozakiewicz — yes
Chair Al Kozakiewicz asked the Clerk if this application needed to go for § 239-m review.
Clerk said no.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said the meeting was going faster than he expected.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said the next application, (P2021-09 Lot Line Amendment Sturgess to An Tintean), had a thick sheaf of papers with it. He said that if Planning Board members had read at least the first page of the paper packet, they would have come across something which would have gotten their radar up. He said this was a Lot Line Amendment which looks like the purpose of it is to carve out a small piece of an unbuildable lot — a completely nonconforming lot — to incorporate the already existing well on to the property of the house to which the well belongs. He said what caught his attention was that this is a paper road. He said he spoke with Paul Kolodziej, the attorney. He said the attorney said there was nothing in terms of a road built there now. He said the attorney did not answer the question of the nature of the road: easement, just for planning purposes. He said the application would normally be simple and straightforward except for the road issue. He then turned the floor over to Rick Sturgess.
Rick Sturgess said the road is access to his property, which is sixty acres to the northeast. He said he acquired the road, but the well of the neighbors house is on his property plus a third or so of his property is on the neighbors property. He said he wants to get the liability off of his back. He said if a kid jumps on a trampoline and falls off, he does not want to get sued. He said that also the well is on that property. He said as long as he has access to his property, that’s all that he needs. He said there is nothing that could be built on that lot. He said he wanted to add that sliver onto the neighbor’s property. He said that way there would be no issues for the future home buyers or liability issues on his end.
Rick Gilmour asked if the house was for sale.
Rick Sturgess said the house was sold and in contract now. He said the closing was pending resolution of this issue.
Lynne Delesky asked how much property is being conveyed.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said the lot was 10,000 square feet and they are conveying 200 square feet.
Fred Franko corrected the Chair and said 2117 square feet.
Rick Gilmour asked if there was a fence.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said yes.
Rick Gilmour asked if the fence was dividing what was proposed.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said yes.
Lynne Delesky said there were too many (simultaneous) conversations going on.
Rick Gilmour apologized.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz apologized.
Clerk asked for clarification for the minutes.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said 2117 square feet out of roughly 10,000 square feet.
Lynne Delesky asked Rick Gilmour what he’d said previously (when multiple people were speaking simultaneously).
Rick Gilmour said he was just asking if the fence was where the proposed property boundary would be.
Lynne Delesky asked the applicant if there was anybody else who has access off of the lot he owns. She asked specifically how Mike Kaminski gets to his property.
Rick Sturgess said Mike Kaminski drives through his lot.
Lynne Delesky asked if Mike Kaminski has a right-of-way.
Rick Sturgess said Mike Kaminski has an easement through the property Rick Sturgess owns, but it does not touch this.
Lynne Delesky asked if Rick Sturgess meant it does not touch the sliver to be conveyed to An Tintean.
Rick Sturgess said yes.
Lynne Delesky asked if there was anyone else.
Rick Sturgess said no.
Lynne Delesky asked for confirmation that Loriann Lewis could get to her property without crossing the parcel in question owned by Councilman Sturgess.
Rick Sturgess said he apologized and said yes, Loriann Lewis does need to cross his parcel as well.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz spoke to the Planning Board and said that in the Town of Caroga, roads incorporated entirely within a parcel is not unusual.
Lynne Delesky asked about National Grid having an easement.
Rick Sturgess said that National Grid has an easement on his property to get power to his property. He said it is not affected by the proposed Lot Line Amendment because it is on the other side of the fence. He said a garbage truck goes up every week and nothing is going to change.
Rick Gilmour said there is something that says 10 feet.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said the distance from the well to the fence.
Lynne Delesky said her thought is that if Rick Sturgess ever wanted the Town of Caroga to take over that strip and make it a town road, it might have to be a certain width.
Rick Sturgess said that will never happen.
Lynne Delesky said it won’t if he does the Lot Line Amendment.
Rick Sturgess said the Town of Caroga had an opportunity to buy the parcel 15 years ago and did not do so.
Rick Gilmour asked what was the plan of Rick Sturgess for the property. He noted that there was a subdivision behind it.
Rick Sturgess said that was the property of Mike Kaminski and the subdivision isn’t there anymore. He said that Mike Kaminski built one house. He said Mike Kaminski got rid of the subdivision.
Lynne Delesky asked if the town plows it.
Rick Sturgess said the town pulls in, backs up, and just uses it to turn around.
Lynne Delesky asked who plows it.
Rick Sturgess gestured that he himself did.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz asked if there were any other comments or questions.
There was silence.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz asked for a motion.
Motion: Rick Gilmour moved to approve application P2021-09.
Lynne Delesky seconded the motion.
Roll call vote:
Lynne Delesky — yes
Fred Franko — yes
Roderick
Gilmour — yes
Karen Dutcher —yes
Matt Cooper
—yes
Chair Al Kozakiewicz — yes
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said that motion carries. He said he thought the application did not require a § 239-m review.
Clerk confirmed the application did not require a § 239-m review.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said of the next two applications, one is open-ended and would not result in a Planning Board decision tonight.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said P2021-11 will take some time. He said the applicant wished to build a warehouse for storage of boats. He said that if he understands correctly, it is on State Highway 10 around Pine Lake. He said he was turning the floor over to Karl Ziemann or his spokesman.
Karl Ziemann said he would like to build a pole barn to store boats on the land next door to the Pine Lake Lodge, across the street from Pine Lake Resort and diagonally across from his warehouse. He said there is not traffic being caused by it. He said there are no parking issues. There is no ground water to be used, no waste water, no electricity in the building, no lighting issues, no wetlands, and no runoff.
Matt Cooper asked it this was going to be a big empty box with no power.
Karl Ziemann said yes.
Rick Gilmour said there are a few structures like it up at Pine Lake.
Karl Ziemann agreed, saying Canada Lake Marina has one about five properties away.
Daniel Ziemann said that the original plan was to have a mechanic shop but they decided to convert their current warehouse to a mechanic shop. He said that is why the applicant was able to knock out heat and electricity.
Matt Cooper said that was why he asked the question. He said it was total dry box storage.
Daniel Ziemann agreed.
Karl Ziemann said his plan meets or exceeds all of the setbacks, from the road, from the side, and from the back. He said the building only uses 12% of the parcel area.
Lynne Delesky asked about the siding.
Karl Ziemann said steel siding like the current building has.
Lynne Delesky asked about the color. She said she was hoping for brown or green: something that would blend in with the trees.
Daniel Ziemann said the current warehouse is brown/tan.
Rick Gilmour said earth tone.
Daniel Ziemann agreed.
Patricia Isabella said she was for the proposal.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said Fred Franko had sent him an email question about setback. He asked Fred Franko to talk about that
Fred Franko asked about front setback. He said the application measured side setback from the property line and front setback from the edge of the road.
Karl Ziemann said that was what the engineer who did the plans did. He said it is a 50 foot front setback. He asked if that was from the road or the property line.
Fred Franko said the drawing shows the setback from the road.
Rick Gilmour asked if that was the 55 foot from the road.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said that was how he was interpreting the drawing.
Karl Ziemann said the engineer has it as 50 foot on the breakdown on the side.
Fred Franko asked if the standard approach was to measure from the property line.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said it depends because properties have roads running through them. He said that in that case measuring from the property edge would mean nothing. He said he was looking at a line on the drawing that he was interpreting as the property line.
Fred Franko said that is what he would say.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said that is 15 feet or 20 feet and 20 feet would be the minimum.
Karl Ziemann said the dotted line was the thirty foot setback line and the proposed building is quite a distance from that.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said the issue he and Fred Franko have is that they want to know what a certain line with long lines and dashes on the drawing means. He said he is interpreting that as the property line.
Several board members were having simultaneous separate conversations at this point.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said the first question is whether the line he was describing was the actual front property line. He said it seems like a lot of property for the highway, but it is a state road.
Clerk noted that NYSDOT purchased a wide strip of land for the rerouted State Highway 10 for the rock cut.
Rick Gilmour asked what, then, was the setback from State Highway 10.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said it was 55 feet from the highway edge per the proposal. He said the dimensional requirement for the front setback is 30 feet. He said that would be 30 feet from the property line, not from the road.
Rick Gilmour said he understood. He asked if it could be moved towards the back to meet that requirement, can it be moved to the back.
Karl Ziemann said the rear setback is 20 feet and the plan is at 35 feet presently.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said there was 35 feet in the back.
Rick Gilmour asked what the 40 foot distance was.
Daniel Ziemann said it was the building width.
Matt Cooper said the dotted line was the required 20 foot rear setback.
Rick Gilmour asked if the building were moved back 15 feet, would it still keep the 20 foot in the back.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said yes.
Throughout this time multiple conversations were going on simultaneously.
Matt Cooper said he thought the applicant had the room to move it back 15 feet.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said that he was doing the math in his head. He noted one measurement was 55 feet and another was 30 feet, then the applicant would have to it move back 5 feet.
Rick Gilmour asked why the engineer made that mistake.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said he might be thinking that was from the road setback and this is were it gets confusing, because a lot of peoples’ property is contiguous with the road. He said that was not the case here.
Rick Gilmour said that on a state highway, usually they own more than just the road — almost always.
Lynne Delesky said she had one other point about that. She said that if the applicant were to move it back a little away from the road, it might make it easier if the applicant needed to go down to access that stream.
Karl Ziemann said the fire department wanted to put in a standpipe by the bridge and a pipe so that the fire department can pump from the property and he told the fire company that would be no problem. He said the fire company doesn’t want to pump from the road because that could be a hazard. He said he told the fire company that the area he pointed to was all crusher rubble. He said he told the fire company he would put crusher rubble so that the fire company could bring fire trucks in. He said he told the fire company that they were 50 feet from the road.
Lynne Delesky asked where Karl Ziemann was pointing on the Site Plan.
Karl Ziemann said where the bridge is, is the deepest part. He said the fire company wants to put a pipe to there and then put a fire hydrant somewhere where they could pump the water out of the stream. He said a lot of the stream is dry, but the fire department wants to pump by the bridge where the water is deep. He said he told the fire company he would give the fire company as much access as they needed and he has no problem throwing in some crusher rubble for the fire trucks, because the fire company does not want to pump from the bridge because that could be dangerous.
Lynne Delesky agreed saying the bridge was dangerous already. She said the fire company would have to be able to get by the building.
Karl Ziemann said there was 55 feet. He reiterated that a lot of the stream is dry and the fire company wants to put the pipe at the bridge and have a fire hydrant that fire company can use to pump the water out. He said the fire company does that by his marina also.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz agreed, saying yes there was a standpipe there as well. He asked the applicant if the applicant wanted the Chair to call the applicant’s engineer.
Karl Ziemann said sure.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said he could call tomorrow.
Rick Gilmour asked if it could be a contingency in the decision.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said no, this was a complicated enough Site Plan Review that the Planning Board has to go through the SEQRA and other items. He said he’d like to know that the application is all in order.
Daniel Ziemann said that there would be doors all the way down the side so the boats would go in from the side. There would be 10-foot cubbies for each boat. He said that if necessary, they could shave off a cubby or two to fit in, the applicant could shave off in 10-foot increments.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said this was why he wanted to talk to the applicant’s engineer.
Daniel Ziemann said they could go down to 190 instead of 212.
Rick Gilmour said he didn’t think that was going to be necessary.
Karl Ziemann asked if the application has to be tabled, how long would be the delay.
Daniel Ziemann said they want to get this up to get boats in this winter.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said that if the Planning Board decides to table this, the Planning Board can schedule a date and time now. He said there was no need to meet just on the first Wednesday of the month. He suggested Wednesday October 13. He said he wasn’t hearing any objections.
Lynne Delesky asked about public notice.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said not for an adjournment if the Planning Board schedules the meeting at the time of the adjournment.
Clerk said Wednesday October 13 was the town board Budget Public Hearing.
Clerk said he saw no conflict in the town calendar for Tuesday or Thursday.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said he would reopen the Public Hearing on Thursday October 14 at 7:00pm.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said Thursday gives the Planning Board a little more time, which is what he was hoping for. He said the Planning Board would have to go through the SEQR process as well. He said he would rather postpone the SEQR to make sure that none of the changes after the engineer comes back affect any of the SEQR answers.
Matt Cooper asked if the Planning Board would receive updated drawings.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said he hoped so. He offered, if necessary, to print the drawings on his own printer. He said he would be fine as long as any PDF he receives has the seal.
Fred Franko said the drawing does not seem to match the tax map for the state.
Karl Ziemann asked if it was better for him or worse.
[laughter]
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said parking was not an issue.
Karl Ziemann agreed.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz asked about State Highway 10 curb cuts.
Karl Ziemann said at this time they would use the existing driveway and later apply for another curb cut and driveway.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz asked about signs.
Karl Ziemann said no signs.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said the Planning Board talked a little about architectural features. He asked about screening and landscaping.
Lynne Delesky says she cares about the siding color.
Karl Ziemann said the existing building is beige with chocolate brown trim.
Daniel Ziemann asked if the Planning Board would be happy with that color scheme.
Lynne Delesky said she would be.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said to update the application to indicate that color, because that would be a condition.
Karl Ziemann agreed to do so.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said the rest don’t apply. He said he would normally ask about noise and hours, but other than April and October, there won’t be much going on.
Fred Franko asked about fencing.
Karl Ziemann said he would like do some fencing and shrubbery. He said he had cameras already.
Daniel Ziemann said they would like to mirror the split fence across the road at Pine Lake Park.
Karl Ziemann said there were budget constraints for right now.
Town Clerk Linda Gilbert asked about parking of boats outside when the building was completed.
Karl Ziemann said there would be indoor storage in the building and shrink wrap storage outdoor.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz asked if no shrink wrap boats would be stored at the marina when the project was done.
Karl Ziemann said no.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz asked if all boats would be going to this site.
Karl Ziemann said yes, all would be going to the new 4.5 acres and inside the building.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said that might be a call for additional screening.
Karl Ziemann said he would be open to screening, but not at this time of year.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said it would be useful to show on the Site Plan, where the outdoor storage would be. He said if it was all in the southwest corner of the property, some of it would be screened by the house and the barn. He said if the applicant wants to stack them up to the road, the Planning Board might be looking for something along the road to hide the view.
Karl Ziemann said that at this time all the boats are behind the building and barn because he needs to leave room for the contractors.
Rick Gilmour asked if Pine Lake campground has shrink wrap boats.
Karl Ziemann said yes. He said five properties to the left of the proposed site, Canada Lake Marina has a building and outdoor storage of boats.
Rick Gilmour said so it is normal for this area.
Matt Cooper said the Canada Lake Marina boats are masked a little more because there are trees. He said you drive by and you can see it, but it is not right on the road.
Rick Gilmour said that screening should then be taken into consideration. He said that’s common sense really.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said whatever fits in the building, fits in the building, the public can’t see it. He asked about how many boats would be stored outdoors. He said if is ten or twenty, that’s one thing, if it is a hundred, that’s another thing. He said there’s a lot of room in between that, but the Planning Board would want to know, as part of being able to review this Site Plan accurately, is to commit to whatever it is the applicant wants to commit to.
Daniel Ziemann said that in the past they have put boats right next to the road but now they would have space to hide them better.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said what the Planning Board would be looking for is when Karl Ziemann and Daniel Ziemann are no longer on this earth, and the business is owned by somebody else, and they decide they want to store 200 boats there. He paused and asked the Planning Board whether he should stop talking about this.
In unison, the Planning Board members all strongly stated that Chair Al Kozakiewicz was on the right track and to continue this topic.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said he would like the applicant to put a number in the application which would be the maximum number of boats that would ever be stored outdoors. He said he would be much more comfortable being able to understand the impact of the Site Plan, whatever that number is. He said the applicant did not need to give it to the Planning Board now. He said to the applicant to think about it and come back next Thursday (October 14, 2021), the Planning Board would incorporate that number in as part of the discussion in evaluating the project.
Rick Sturgess interjected asking what was the relevance of that, because Karl Ziemann can bring boats up there right now and store and whether he has this building or not, he can put 500 up there. He asked if there is anything the Planning Board can do about that.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said not now, no.
Rick Sturgess again asked what was the relevance of the applicant telling the Planning Board how many shrink wrap boats the applicant is going to have up there after the fact as long as they set the road setback.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said it would give the Planning Board an idea of what the visual impact would be.
Rick Gilmour explained to Rick Sturgess that this was a Site Plan Review. He said there were about fifty boats right there now.
Karl Ziemann said that it was less than that.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz suggested putting the number 60. He said he would drive up there and take a look.
Karl Ziemann said there was about 40 to 50 boats right there now. He said he could store 70 in his current buildings, 20 in the extension and 50 in the current building. He said he has had 60 on his one acre property for the past ten years. He said it has grown and there will be as many as Canada Lake Marina has up there in the future. He said the majority are behind the house and the barn today but they build the building they can’t put any there/
Chair Al Kozakiewicz asked how many the building would hold.
Karl Ziemann said the building would be able to hold forty.
Lynne Delesky asked for clarification on the statement by Karl Ziemann that he would not be able to put any behind the house and the barn after he builds the building.
Fred Franko said to Rick Sturgess, that if the applicant isn’t going to build anything there, the applicant can do anything the applicant wants. He said if the applicant wants to build something there, that’s where the Planning Board has the opportunity to put some contingencies in as a condition of doing the building.
Rick Sturgess said he sees it a little bit, but whether he agrees with it or not, it is not his problem.
Code Enforcement Officer Jennifer DeRocker-Blowers said it is not that the Planning Board does not appreciate the applicant’s business in the town, it is that the Planning Board is trying to look out for the environment and how it is going to be 20 years from now.
Rick Gilmour agreed, and added that the Planning Board is concerned about the look of the Town of Caroga.
Rick Sturgess said the way he looks at it, this is a resort town and without boats, this town is dead.
Rick Gilmour said the Planning Board also looks at the blight aspect of the application.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz encouraged the Planning Board members to drive up and look as the site as it presently is.
Matt Cooper said look at Kenny's Marina on the edge of Gloversville and what that has looked like in the last ten years. He said it could turn into that. He said the Planning Board does not want that.
Karl Ziemann said we would never turn into that.
Lynne Delesky said the applicant could sell it.
Patricia Isabella said the goal was to plant trees.
Motion: Chair Al Kozakiewicz moved to table Application P2021-11 until Thursday October 14, 2021 at 7pm.
Lynne Delesky seconded.
All Planning Board members were in favor. None were opposed.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said the last thing was not a formal application. He said this is (P2021-13 of SBL#114.-2-31.5 at 3100 State Highway 10) Isabella for an RV park. He asked who was representing.
Brandon Ferguson said he was from Environmental Design Partnership.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said for a project this complicated, the applicant wanted to come and talk ahead of any Public Hearing.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said he assumes that the engineer is looking for feedback.
Brandon Ferguson said he represents Patricia Isabella and John Isabella. He said it is 55 acres, split HC-2.5 and ODA. He said the applicant is looking to do an RV park. He said it gets pretty steep. He's looking at about 33 lots, mostly seasonal renters. Septic and well onsite. He knows that it needs to go to APA, DOH.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz asked if this was the property that used to have a trailer.
Patricia Isabella said yes, and it has about 750 feet of road frontage.
Brandon Ferguson said the applicant is looking to build an RV park. He said the property has septic and well. He said it gets pretty steep. He's looking at an RV park close to State Highway 10 with about 33 lots, pavilion, and restroom. He said the goal was to have mostly seasonal renters. He said there would be septic and well onsite. He knows that it needs to go to the Adirondack Park Agency and the Department of Health. He said the purpose tonight was to get the Planning Boards thoughts and feedback on what the Planning Board likes and doesn’t like.
Lynne Delesky asked what would be on each site.
Brandon Ferguson said there would be water hookup, sewer hookup, electrical, and gravel pad for the RV. He said it would be community septic, though the applicant has not yet designed that. He said the septic would be piped together into a couple separate systems.
Lynne Delesky asked if there would be cement pad.
Brandon Ferguson said it would be gravel pad.
Karen Dutcher asked if this would be for the whole season or in-and-out, in-and-out.
Patricia Isabella said they would start with season.
Lynne Delesky asked whether the RVs would leave.
Patricia Isabella said they didn’t know yet. She said some RV parks allow people to keep their RV all year long.
Karen Dutcher asked with Royal Mountain right there, would this be for the Royal Mountain users.
Patricia Isabella said Royal Mountain has their own area.
Patricia Isabella said they have owned the property for 10 or 12 years and thought of doing many things with the property. She said they considered building a solar farm. She said they thought RV would be better for the area. She said 33 slots was not that many. She said they were new at RV park.
Karen Dutcher said asked if it was like Royal Mountain where they come in and they stay.
Patricia Isabella agreed. She said it was a little community.
Matt Cooper asked about a main office building.
Patricia Isabella said there was the pavilion.
Brandon Ferguson said there was a pavilion with restroom area.
Rick Gilmour asked if the property that goes up steeply was buildable.
Patricia Isabella said they could do things down the road, but they wanted to go slow.
Rick Gilmour asked if it could be moved a little further off the road.
John Isabella said it was steep and there is a power line.
Brandon Ferguson said there were a few restrictions. He pointed to the National Grid easement. He said after the power easement it gets pretty steep.
Patricia Isabella said down the road maybe people would want to do some camping on the higher parts. She said it would complement Royal Mountain to have some lodging right next to it.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said the town was short on lodging. He said he thought that this does fit in with the comprehensive plan as to the kind of development the Planning Board wants.
Code Enforcement Officer Jennifer DeRocker-Blowers asked how much was in HC-2.5.
Brandon Ferguson said all of the proposal was in HC-2.5.
Code Enforcement Officer Jennifer DeRocker-Blowers said one could put three of these projects in the town and they would all be full. She said that those who were there seasonally would need space for a relative or two to park. She said she doesn't think there is enough parking for visitors to RV spots.
Brandon Ferguson said they could add more parking.
Code Enforcement Officer Jennifer DeRocker-Blowers said that one would not want to crowd the site and have the neighbor be upset.
Brandon Ferguson said this was the concept stage now. He said they could look at additional parking as they get into the design. He said that was the kind of feedback they were looking for.
Lynne Delesky asked if the road leading in is existing.
Brandon Ferguson Road A falls in between the two existing roads. He said there is a loop driveway access.
Lynne Delesky asked if there would be a new driveway road C.
Brandon Ferguson said yes.
Lynne Delesky asked if there was a concern about getting a curb cut permit.
Brandon Ferguson said that was something they would have to apply to with DOT. The reason for two driveways is to make it easier for emergency vehicles.
Code Enforcement Officer Jennifer DeRocker-Blowers said the idea of an entrance and exit was good. She said most people with $120,000 RV want to take their garbage somewhere every night and that requires a building or facility onsite.
Brandon Ferguson said they would put in an onsite dumpster site.
Karen Dutcher asked about septic dumping station.
Brandon Ferguson said each site would have its own septic hookup.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz asked if this is a class A or class B as far as the Adirondack Park Agency is concerned.
Brandon Ferguson said he believes it is a class B. He said they had sent a JIF (Jurisdictional Inquiry Form) to the Adirondack Park Agency.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz says that means the Planning Board can approve that.
Rick Gilmour asked what the time frame was — when does the applicant want to start.
Brandon Ferguson said they hoped to get going early next year. He said Department of Health, Adirondack Park Agency, and Department of Transportation can take a while.
Lynne Delesky asked about a well location.
Patricia Isabella said there was a 150 foot drilled well on the site now.
Lynne Delesky asked if that was shown on the drawing.
Patricia Isabella said it was where the trailer used to be.
Brandon Ferguson said it was there but he would make sure it was put back on.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz asked if the flow would be sufficient.
Brandon Ferguson said they would look into and work with Department of Health.
Matt Cooper said it required two hundred feet from the well to the septic.
Brandon Ferguson said Department of Health usually comes out and sites the well.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz asked about designing septic sized for 33 hookups, is it typical that there would be enough percolation on site to get rid of the discharge on site.
Brandon Ferguson said the idea would be to do septic on site. He said they have not done soil tests yet.
Code Enforcement Officer Jennifer DeRocker-Blowers said to the Planning Board that the applicant’s calculation would be based on the maximum number of RVs allowed.
Brandon Ferguson said 100 gallons per day per site is Department of Health formula.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz asked about having a laundromat on site.
Patricia Isabella said no.
Brandon Ferguson said there would be a pavilion with restrooms.
Lynne Delesky read from the Environmental Assessment Form Part 1 question 12 b:
b. Is the project site, or any portion of it, located in or adjacent to an area designated as sensitive for archaeological sites on the NY State Historic Preservation Office (SHPO) archaeological site inventory?
Lynne Delesky asked why the applicant answered yes and where was that located.
Fred Franko said State Historic Preservation Office would have a listing of sites.
Brandon Ferguson said he recalled it was automatically filled in by the online site.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said the PB would probably require the long form EAF. He said it might require an environmental impact statement. He said the Planning Board has never done one because the Planning Board has never had a project that required one.
Lynne Delesky asked about question13 and whether there were wetlands.
Brandon Ferguson said there were no wetlands.
Lynne Delesky asked why was the answer yes.
Brandon Ferguson said a lot of that come off the online database so there might be wetlands on another neighboring site.
Clerk said Copeland to Stock Lot Line Amendment across the street had wetlands.
Several simultaneous conversations.
Fred Franko said the project is a fabulous idea.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said that if this were in the Hamlet, he would probably recoil because it would not be in character, but next to Royal Mountain, this is complementary to that.
Fred Franko said he would encourage the applicants if they have any ideas about further development to get them in the application. He said it looks like moderate slope before it gets really steep. He said he could imagine as series of terraced campsites.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said the Planning Board would not want to see the SEQR segmented: if there are plans for further development, whether or not they are final, the Planning Board would want to see them before proceeding with the application.
Brandon Ferguson said they had considered about campsite areas, not necessarily RV areas.
Patricia Isabella said these would be where folks drive into their campsite, because it would be easier in a car, truck, or van.
Fred Franko said there is crying need for winter lodging.
Patricia Isabella said like a yurt.
Fred Franko said maybe like a tiny home.
Patricia Isabella said do you know how old we are — that’s a lot of work.
Town Clerk Linda Gilbert said she wishes it was hotel.
Patricia Isabella said she also wishes she could have done that, but there was no infrastructure. She said they would do landscaping once they got the project in there.
Town Clerk Linda Gilbert asked about meeting fire code with the lots right next to each other. She also asked about leaving something like a ten foot by ten foot shed on site.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said that would be an important consideration for the Planning Board if there was going to be any permanent storage of RVs or structures on the site. He said the Planning Board would need to know about it. He said when the Planning Board updated the Zoning Ordinance it did not want folks to buy an empty lot and just put an RV there. He said this was a business, so it was different.
Patricia Isabella asked if everybody is thumbs up so far.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said yes, that was his opinion. He then thanked the applicants.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz asked what minutes needing approving.
Clerk listed the minutes needing approval.
Rick Gilmour asked to table the minutes until the next meeting.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz asked if there was any other business.
There was none.
Chair Al Kozakiewicz said that hearing none, he asked for a motion to adjourn.
Motion: Lynne Delesky moved to adjourn.
Karen Dutcher seconded the motion.
All were in favor. None were opposed.
The meeting adjourned at 8:25pm.
James McMartin Long,
Planning Clerk/Secretary
Town Board
Member
PO Box 328
Caroga Lake NY 12032
(518)835-3734
(home)
James@JamesLong.com
Copyright © James McMartin Long 2017–2024